Curse

Mireles · Jul 17, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

What kind of argument is "anet is doing real money trade"?
No shit, sherlock. It's their game. You do real money trade for character slots, the campaigns, collector's minis, /bonus items, bonus mission pack, and all those things.

Did it ever occur to you that, durrr, OBVIOUSLY they want the real money trade so they gain profit???
In fact, don't ALL businesses want players to buy things that would profit THEM?

And if your counter-argument is that it's not fair, well, then I guess I can agree. Life isn't fair.

I can understand that point but monthly secondary currency on a monthly basis... i think thats going a little far.

And of course life isnt fair... one its a game.. and two that doesn't mean we should just accept everything the way it is.

Daesu · Jul 17, 2009, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

lol, they could. They could decide to sell off all the guild wars serves and shut down the program and there is not anything anyone can do about it. I doubt it thou.... and i haven't said anything that ArenaNet hasn't said about real world trading in the past.

Wrong! They cannot do that. They cannot sell you a game that needs to connect to their servers, and then purposefully shutdown their servers and run away from the law.

If they run into technical glitch and need to repair their servers, that is fine. But if it is proven that they purposefully shutdown their servers to swindle their customers then they can be charged in court.

CyberNigma · Jul 17, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

oh and keep this in mind concerning RMT. Almost every online game publisher out there is against third party RMT. First, they don't get the money. Second, because they don't get the money it's against the rules. Third, since its against the rules, its shady and the players are not protected, hence open to being scammed, ripped off, defrauded, etc - which hurts the game and the company.

Some companies have changed their stance on 1st party RMT, whether direct (Runes of Magic) or indrect (EVE Online) since they have control over it and can make sure nobody is being defrauded since it comes from them). I think ANet at one time was in the group that was vehemently opposed to third party RMT, and mostly opposed to first party RMT. Now I think, as with everyone else it seems, they are leaning towards the group - vehemently opposed to third party RMT but supports first party indirect RMT. Who knows, maybe they'll even go first party direct eventually. RMT isn't bad, so long as it is done right. It is a balancing force against people that can put in 20+ hours a day every day.

Still Number One · Jul 17, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

My point is still valid about the integrity of the game

What point? You are trying to say that people making more in game gold by buying accounts to get more keys out of the XTH is the same thing as buying gold online from an outside supplier. Your point is wrong. They are two completely different things.

People are buying another account and using a feature in game in order to make some extra cash for no effort other than the real money they put into the deal. To you that sounds like people are just buying gold from a gold seller right? Well it is different because they are buying accounts from Anet, not gold from Bob or Joe. Anet made the game, and therefore are entitled to make a profit on this game using whatever means they legally can. Bob and Joe are exploiting Anets game to gain profit off of something they did not create and do not own. Anet is selling you something they own (more like renting you) while Bob and Joe are trying to sell you something that is owned by Anet. They are two completely different things.

I can sell you my car, but I can't sell you my neighbors car. I'm still selling a car right? Technically it is the same thing, the difference being I have a legal right to one, and not toward the other.

So you can go ahead and believe it is unfair as much as you want, but the fact is it isn't. It is fair business and Anet has every right to continue it.

Nerel · Jul 17, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

snip...
Should XTH be removed? From a game-integrity standpoint, I'd say yes. However, I spent a lot of money on my accounts under the impression that it wouldn't be removed. If it is, it's quite simple really - I'll just take my next $400 and spend it somewhere else. Of course, if it remains as is, you may also take your money and spend it somewhere else since you know you can't trust ANet not to make dumb policy choices regarding their games. It sucks either way.

Wait, what gave you the impression that it would never be removed or altered? Did ArenaNet state this somewhere? Or, like any other feature of the game is it possible that it might be changed or removed at some point, and indeed very likely be altered if ArenaNet sees it as a problem or somehow unbalancing the game? This game does change, in fairly minor ways, on a fairly regular basis... attribute refund points anyone? What made you think the XTH was somehow exempt from this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pansy malfoy

XTH was originally conceived to give PvP players a decent cash flow, correct? It takes plat to create guilds/invite members/purchase and kit out your GH/just buy the things you need/want. Sure, many of them are also PvE, and can, yanno, just pve, but shouldn't have to in order to obtain money.

What reason, beyond "omg that bitch has more plat/fancier weapons/better armor than I do!" do you have for making they keys non-tradeable?

You're essentially moving already existing money around between players, it's not 'new gold' being created. I have 12 keys from XTH/PvP/whatever, someone has 48k, we make the trade. That 48k already existed, it wasn't just pulled from someone's arse O_O

I'm not sure the XTH predictions was conceived as a way to help PvP'ers earn cash, quite unlikely really, considering how anyone can use it, and with no knowledge or skill make a decent amount of Zkeys...

The whole "Moving money about between players" and not magically 'creating' wealth argument is a good one, I like it, it's also EXACTLY what happens when you buy money from the gold sellers (RMT)... they don't make the gold 'magically' appear in your inventory either, nope, they farm it with bots, scam it, or steal accounts and rape them to get it... no mystical wealth creation involved there either, and it's seemingly irrelevant to the OP's point. The point is 'free money' being paid for with real world cash. Seems the XTH and RMT do have a lot in common, except the RMTs are never 'down for repairs'.

A final note, for those people who are opposed to Tournament Reward Points being turned into Zkeys, or Zkeys being tradable in general... I disagree with you.

Tournament Reward Points EARNED by competing in the automated tournaments are a fair and reasonable source of income for PvP'ers, as are Zkeys purchased with Balthazar faction. I wouldn't even think of removing those from the game.

The points 'earned' by making predictions with the XTH and the zkeys associated with those points are a very different matter. Perhaps the XTH should just pay non-tradable Zkeys and leave the reward points to people who actually earned them?

Mireles · Jul 17, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Alright I'm done for today... yeah a lot of people have distaste for me putting this up... but most of the ppl even the people that distaste me say "yes its real world trading". Opinions say yes its ok or no its not ok, are of course going to be separated always. People think it is ok because it is Anet's game, and i think its wrong for the same reason.

Thanks for everyone that had input on the argument itself...

People that have distaste for me putting this up can keep on not liking me, i just hope they will make their own points clear instead of just attacking me, assuming they have any.

Inde · Jul 17, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

oh and keep this in mind concerning RMT. Almost every online game publisher out there is against third party RMT. First, they don't get the money. Second, because they don't get the money it's against the rules...

I hate to point this out but ArenaNet claims to ban 5,000 RMT accounts a week. That's 5,000 new accounts they'll have to purchase. Say they get it for $30 a pop. $15,000 a week from RMT companies isn't so bad. That's almost 1 million a year in profit.

Mireles · Jul 17, 2009, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Wrong! They cannot do that. They cannot sell you a game that needs to connect to their servers, and then purposefully shutdown their servers and run away from the law.

If they run into technical glitch and need to repair their servers, that is fine. But if it is proven that they purposefully shutdown their servers to swindle their customers then they can be charged in court.

lol and what law is this (book, article number, and section number please)? or u just assuming because it wouldn't be fair. They own the servers the right to use them is not guaranteed... just like they can take your account away for breaking the rules ven thou u got the game 3 days before that.

Read the EULA all accounts, in game items, characters, and game servers are property of ArenaNet you have no rights or claim to it

RyanA · Jul 17, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

It is a game. It does not have integrity. Stop thinking this means something. It is a GAME. If the in game (ie FAKE) accomplishments of someone floor you because you think they were achieved unfairly, stop posting in this forum and get counseling.

Also, if you think the poll is representative of the entire guild wars community, take a statistics course from your local community college.

Until then, let others enjoy the fun of predicting the tournaments. I know it has me a lot more interested in PvP than I used to be.

Daesu · Jul 17, 2009, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

I hate to point this out but ArenaNet claims to ban 5,000 RMT accounts a week. That's 5,000 new accounts they'll have to purchase. Say they get it for $30 a pop. $15,000 a week from RMT companies isn't so bad. That's almost 1 million a year in profit.

That 5,000 account is probably not worth it considering the amount of damage they can do to the game with that number of accounts.

These people probably earn more than they invested on accounts, otherwise it wouldn't be a profitable business for them. These are money ANet could have earned from us by selling us in-game goods and services in their online store.

Furthermore, gold sellers dont need to care about damaging the game economy so they dont need to invest efforts on cleaning it up. ANet does, so it is also an extra cost on ANet for money that goes into someone else's pockets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

lol and what law is this (book, article number, and section number please)? or u just assuming because it wouldn't be fair. They own the servers the right to use them is not guaranteed... just like they can take your account away for breaking the rules ven thou u got the game 3 days before that.

Lol! Sure, if you say that is legal for them to not provide game service why dont you do the same. Make your own game that does nothing because you have no game servers. Try it and tell us if you become rich in the process. Maybe you are the first human to discover this exploit to being a millionaire!

CyberNigma · Jul 17, 2009, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Wrong! They cannot do that. They cannot sell you a game that needs to connect to their servers, and then purposefully shutdown their servers and run away from the law.

If they run into technical glitch and need to repair their servers, that is fine. But if it is proven that they purposefully shutdown their servers to swindle their customers then they can be charged in court.

heh, let me introduce you to Steel Battalion: Line of Contact, Fury, Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, Earth and Beyond, Hellgate London with a Founder's Subscription, Jumpgate (not Jumpgate: Evolution), etc etc

Many of these games, not only did you have to buy the game (aka Guild Wars), but you also had to subscribe. Buying a lifetime sub or subscriptions in 6-month blocks didn't stop them either. Fury was closest to GW with an optional subscription. Hellgate:London basically screwed al of the western lifeimte subscribers while those payers in the East still get to play (all the while blocking western subscribers that actually paid for the game from playing over there). Steel Battalion: Line of Contact was an online-only game that you can't play anymore (expansion, rather).

You should read the EULA sometime, even the box. If you believe that it wouldn't stand up in court (it may or may not as several EULAs have actually been thrown out), then YOU can be the one to hire the lawyers to test it if it happens. You may actually have a chance. Until then, it's just talk and many companies have gotten away with worse based on the gamble that it is just talk. A EULA has always stood up to scrutiny when those that scrutinized it never bothered to challenge it in court. IANAL but it doesn't feel like a challenge to ANet taking down their servers would stand anywhere.

Mireles · Jul 17, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Read the EULA all accounts, in game items, characters, and game servers are property of ArenaNet you have no rights or claim to it. you dont own anything so you can sue for it.

Inde · Jul 17, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

I realize some of you haven't been following MMO's for very long. For many this is probably their first... many MMO's have been shut down. And subscription based ones at that. There's nothing illegal about it.

Mireles · Jul 17, 2009, 01:58 AM // 01:58

yeah it could be illegal but theirs nothing explicitly making illegal.

Daesu · Jul 17, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Read the EULA all accounts, in game items, characters, and game servers are property of ArenaNet you have no rights or claim to it. you dont own anything so you can sue for it.

Go for it! Now you have discovered the path to richness! Lol!

If you are so sure it is legal for them to do that, why dont you do the same? Afterall your "game" doesn't need to actually work since you have no game servers.

Since you keep arguing with me that it is legal, you shouldn't be afraid of getting sued for fraud right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

You should read the EULA sometime, even the box. If you believe that it wouldn't stand up in court (it may or may not as several EULAs have actually been thrown out), then YOU can be the one to hire the lawyers to test it if it happens. You may actually have a chance. Until then, it's just talk and many companies have gotten away with worse based on the gamble that it is just talk. A EULA has always stood up to scrutiny when those that scrutinized it never bothered to challenge it in court. IANAL but it doesn't feel like a challenge to ANet taking down their servers would stand anywhere.

A EULA is not the law and game companies dont legislate.

CyberNigma · Jul 17, 2009, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

I hate to point this out but ArenaNet claims to ban 5,000 RMT accounts a week. That's 5,000 new accounts they'll have to purchase. Say they get it for $30 a pop. $15,000 a week from RMT companies isn't so bad. That's almost 1 million a year in profit.

lol, as always you make a good point Inde :-)

By doing so in this manner they still limit any liability or perception that they're part of the problem. I imagine its much easier than the customer service problems that would arise should third party RMT become more common practice (read: acceptable) and pissed off people turn to ArenaNet to fix it..

In the end, though, you are right. ArenaNet is in a win-win situation here. The F2P market would be hit the hardest by something like that - the cases such as Runes of Magic/Free Realms where there is no client cost upfront like in most other MMOs. Of course they skirt the problem by providing their own approved RMT service :-)

CyberNigma · Jul 17, 2009, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Go for it! Now you have discovered the path to richness! Lol!

If you are so sure it is legal for them to do that, why dont you do the same? Afterall your "game" doesn't need to actually work since you have no game servers.

Since you keep arguing with me that it is legal, you shouldn't be afraid of getting sued for fraud right?

Keep in mind that what you just mentioned is completely different from what was mentioned previously. There's a big legal difference between someone selling you something that eventually stops working and someone selling you something that they know does not work. One is called the product's lifetime the other is called fraud.

rick1027 · Jul 17, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

I disagree with me not sharing my opinions.... updates are made based on player opinions why shouldn't i be able to talk...

However i do like your idea bout changing the reward to something non trade able. As i said in the first post i think one way they could regulated XTH is make z-keys non trade able

if they did this it wouldnt bother me but it seems you blame the z keys for ruining an economy when it was clearly ruined back when they made inscriptions. if you truly were here from beta you would have seen that. z keys just further flattened out those who decided that z keys not ectos should be the source of trading

Nerel · Jul 17, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

I hate to point this out but ArenaNet claims to ban 5,000 RMT accounts a week. That's 5,000 new accounts they'll have to purchase. Say they get it for $30 a pop. $15,000 a week from RMT companies isn't so bad. That's almost 1 million a year in profit.

I see this quote a lot, and I'm not sure it's very representative of the actually amount of banning going on each and every month, as with all press releases, marketing hype and spin doctoring this is more likely to be a form of selective truth...

I'm sure that during a short period of Guild War's history, while ArenaNet was initially cracking down on the RMT that they did indeed average around 5000 bans a month, I'm not saying they lied... but to suggest that it's an average of 5000 accounts per month every month? Not likely.

The truth is, with the RMTs adapting to the ArenaNet crackdown, the period of time when ArenaNet was largely ignoring the problem etc the 'average figure' is far lower.

Made worse by the possibility that many of those 'banned' RMT accounts were, and are likely to be replaced by, stolen player accounts.

I think the amount of money flowing from the RMT industry into NCsoft coffers is considerably lower than '5000 accounts per month' might suggest.

Just food for thought.

Inde · Jul 17, 2009, 02:17 AM // 02:17

They said per week Nerel.

http://www.guildwars.com/support/rmt/rmt-en.php